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phoenix64Huh. It seems I may have expressed an unpopular fannish opinion, but the truth is the more I think about it the more I'm not sure I'm right anyway.
Not everything in fandom is for everyone, to put it mildly. There's stuff out there that some people would find disturbing and upsetting but by and large the majority of (the sane people in) fandom will fight against the idea that it shouldn't exist. I'm absolutely one of those people. I used to have a mostly non-fannish personal LJ and one of the reasons I abandoned it for this one full-time was my frustration with the lack of support for fandom from the other people I associated with on that journal when LJ was giving fandom a hard time. Someone's creative expression might make my skin crawl, it might make my stomach turn, it might make me cry angrily, but I am highly unlikely to argue that it shouldn't exist.
But what about when it's the source material that's problematic? Does that deserve the same tolerance?
I guess I haven't really run into this issue before. The only instance I can think of that would have been widely known would have been Spike's attempted rape of Buffy and I wasn't hanging around the general fannish community at the time. Did that get used fannishly in a way that upset people? Because that's the issue that came up for me: the eroticizing of a situation where someone was being victimized. The victimization aspect wasn't being eroticized, it was just ignored.
Keeping in mind that I normally occupy a pretty small corner of fandom, mostly populated by people that are like me in age range and general background. I mention it because I think part of what prompted me to say something was that I knew much of the audience in this case was much younger. I suspect I may be a little maternally concerned (which is a strange place for me to be, I'm just saying). But am I guilty of not respecting people's ability to treat fantasy and reality differently? Or is it justified that I be concerned that people aren't recognizing what's wrong with the source material?
I don't know, I'm just curious what other people think. I'm not convinced that I'm always right and I'd certainly like the opportunity to form a more considered opinion, whether or not it's the same as the one I'm currently holding.
SO IF YOU READ THIS AND COMMENT ON IT I'D REALLY APPRECIATE IT.
*ahem* Thank you.
Not everything in fandom is for everyone, to put it mildly. There's stuff out there that some people would find disturbing and upsetting but by and large the majority of (the sane people in) fandom will fight against the idea that it shouldn't exist. I'm absolutely one of those people. I used to have a mostly non-fannish personal LJ and one of the reasons I abandoned it for this one full-time was my frustration with the lack of support for fandom from the other people I associated with on that journal when LJ was giving fandom a hard time. Someone's creative expression might make my skin crawl, it might make my stomach turn, it might make me cry angrily, but I am highly unlikely to argue that it shouldn't exist.
But what about when it's the source material that's problematic? Does that deserve the same tolerance?
I guess I haven't really run into this issue before. The only instance I can think of that would have been widely known would have been Spike's attempted rape of Buffy and I wasn't hanging around the general fannish community at the time. Did that get used fannishly in a way that upset people? Because that's the issue that came up for me: the eroticizing of a situation where someone was being victimized. The victimization aspect wasn't being eroticized, it was just ignored.
Keeping in mind that I normally occupy a pretty small corner of fandom, mostly populated by people that are like me in age range and general background. I mention it because I think part of what prompted me to say something was that I knew much of the audience in this case was much younger. I suspect I may be a little maternally concerned (which is a strange place for me to be, I'm just saying). But am I guilty of not respecting people's ability to treat fantasy and reality differently? Or is it justified that I be concerned that people aren't recognizing what's wrong with the source material?
I don't know, I'm just curious what other people think. I'm not convinced that I'm always right and I'd certainly like the opportunity to form a more considered opinion, whether or not it's the same as the one I'm currently holding.
SO IF YOU READ THIS AND COMMENT ON IT I'D REALLY APPRECIATE IT.
*ahem* Thank you.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-21 04:27 am (UTC)Not many fans have objected to this, but some have, and some have used it in their stories or meta. And I think that's awesome and enjoy it - even while I rationalise to myself that the show is eye candy and fantasy, like the action movies I watch, that aren't mean to reflect reality but to reflect what we sometimes secretly wish we could get away with.
The original H50 was a realistic cop show. The reboot is just pretty, flashy, explosions, and witty banter with just enough plot to hang the scenes together with string. So I don't mind that the canon is full of things i'd object to in a realistic show (violence, etc). But I can see why others do object and I appreciate their efforts to acknowledge it and deal with it in some way.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-21 06:38 am (UTC)Certainly the last thing I want to do is even remotely imply that I'm discouraging discussion of problematic source material, either directly or indirectly through meta or fanworks. My concern is when someone is taking problematic source material and ignoring the parts about it that are problematic and using it in a manner that is fluffy or eroticized or whatever.
There's an example I've seen being used frequently and I kind of felt the need to say, "No, seriously, that's icky, I really wish people would stop doing that." Then I wonder if they understand why it's problematic. Then I wonder if I'm not giving them enough credit. Then I think and think and think some more until I think myself into a mental Möbius strip and I remember that cliché about the definition of insanity and figure it's time for some new input.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-21 11:32 pm (UTC)I haven't seen anyone eroticizing this in their fic, but it definitely strikes me as problematic that in-universe, it wasn't really seen as a big deal.
Also, Twilight. ALL THE TWILIGHT.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-22 12:29 am (UTC)Actually Twilight is a pretty close parallel to what prompted this for me. It's kind of like, if the fans that are old enough to know better want to handwave the bad stuff (and there's SO MUCH of it) that's one thing, but what if some of the younger fans don't know any better? As members of fandom, what's our responsibility and if we should speak up how do we so we don't sound like the adults in a Peanuts cartoon?
Damn it, there's a reason I'm not a parent.
I swear I had a point somewhere in here . . .
Date: 2011-07-27 07:19 pm (UTC)Example: I started to watch Buffy circa S2. Looking back, it's obvious that watching it live shaped my feelings about the show for, at least, the first five seasons. It's also the reason why I detest S6 (except for a few episodes) and feel generally ambivalent about S7 (again, except for a few episodes.)
Through the years since the show went off the air (I tried to get into the "S8" comics, but the story arc was a mess from the very beginning and never really got better so I skipped out about halfway in the series.), I've been able to go back and rewatch it with a more critical eye. In some ways, I can see the ways it failed (and how!) while still be able to give it thumbs up for the parts where the show got it right.
So, when I say that I can't stand the uber-witch!Willow from S5 on, that I haaaated what happened to Anya (what a perfect character to have crossed over to Angel the Series!), that I've always loved Riley Finn (milquetoast as he was in S4 to badass!Riley in S6) etc, I'm not diminishing anyone else's views on the fandom. Those are my opinions.
I believe that, as long as I state them in a normal manner, people can take or leave them. There's a big difference between saying "I hate 123/ABC pairing. That is a STUPID couple. Thinking about them kissing MAKES ME GAG" vs. "123/ABC pairing is not one I like at all. To me, there's no (sexual) chemistry. I prefer of thinking of them as friends only."
Sure, there are people who are totally rose-coloured glasses about Buffy and, to them, my opinions (the negative ones) might seem harsh.
But, you know what? They can shrug them off. Because their views on Buffy don't define how I feel about the show and/or its fandom (and viceversa.)
So, I'd say that you aren't responsible for 'bursting someone's bubble' about whatever fandom you're talking about. Whether or not they can see the source material's fail is not dependent on you. For some people, being fannish does not entail questioning/critiquing the source material. And, hey, that's OK. For some other people, they derive enjoyment from looking at the source material from as many angles as they can.
The truth is, we all bring something to the fandom.